THM 2005-06-23 Summary
D1273173106
Auriel
#Original agenda:
#
# *	Documentation: status, people working on it, goals, resources.
# *	Plan 9/Inferno/Limbo integration(native dis, auth, shared code,
#	etc.)
# *	Ports to new arches and coordination of kernel work (x86-64,
#	Sparc, Xen, ...)
# *	Tech transfer: p9p, dtLinux.
# *	v9fs status report - [ericvh]
# *	An update on the 9grid and cross-domain auth? - 20h
#
#Notes taken by [email protected]. If there are inaccuracies please
#email the fix to me and I'll update the wiki or fix them in the wiki
#directly. All names are given as the IRC Nickname used during the
#meeting with punctuation omitted.
#
#Ericvh was the moderator. The meeting went for slightly longer than
#one hour. The moderator allotted ten minutes for each topic.
#
#DOCUMENTATION
#
#[Uriel] asked for feedback about the curent documentation.
# *	Newsh requested compiler and kernel documentation. Uriel noted
#	that he is trying to get [Boyd] to document the compiler.
#
#20h suggested that there should be an introduction to creating
#documentation to help recruit new documenters.
#
#Uriel started a discussion about what belonged in the wiki and what
#belonged in more formal documentation.
# *	Ericvh said that over time some wiki documentation should be
#	formalized into /sys/doc and /sys/man. He offered that information
#	should be annotated in the wiki for future migration to formal
#	documentation.
# *	Musasabi said that there should be a good Plan9 introduction
#	document showing how to use Plan9 system components together.
# *	Ericvh noted that v9fs exposure might offer the opportunity for
#	people to publish such documents.
# *	Ericvh pointed out that the wiki is a good place for tutorials,
#	and while there is a lot of configuration tutorial material there
#	is not good coverage of other topics.
# *	Uriel said that the ports document from /sys/doc should be moved
#	to the wiki.
# *	Uriel said he has updated html documentation and asked how to
#	submit it. Ericvh suggested putting them on sources and notifying
#	Jmk and Russ.
# *	Uriel noted that the updates were hand edits due to deficiencies
#	in troff2html that would likely be hard to fix.
#
#PLAN9/INFERNO INTEGRATION
#
#Uriel asked if anyone is still working on native Dis.
# *	Lucho responded that he has not done any new work for lack of
#	time. He is not aware of anyone else doing any work but thinks the
#	work would be useful especially for writing GUI applications.
# *	CaptainWillard said dis is native on froggie (f2f notes that
#	froggie is brucee's OzInferno box).
#
#Uriel offered up the idea of merging Inferno into the Plan9
#distribution.
# *	20h said dtLinux 2.6 will have p9p and Inferno.
# *	Uriel asked about code sharing "(specially kencc)" and auth
#	compatibility. This started off a discussion on supporting
#	Inferno's auth mechanisms.
# *	Ericvh said it was a good idea to integreat Inferno's auth
#	mechanisms int Plan9, p9p and v9fs.
# *	F2f mentioned that the auth mechanisms are PKI based and Uriel
#	offered that they may provide a solution to cross domain
#	authentication in Grid computing. (This topic is discussed more
#	later).
# *	Cross stated a desire for a Kerberos KDC which Ericvh seconded.
# *	The lack of manpower to do the actual work was discussed and
#	Uriel decided to add the item to the wiki [TODO] list. Ericvh said
#	that this would be a great community project and said we should
#	resume discussions on the mailing list (9fans).
#
#PORTS TO NEW ARCHITECTURES AND KERNEL WORK
#
#Newsh said that he has not done any work on sparc recently and has
#started working on Xen 3.0 with Ron.
#
#Uriel asked if Kuro has worked out issues of overlapping work with
#Jmk, but Kuroneko was not around and nobody could offer an answer.
#
#Ericvh said that ppc64 work looks to be moving ahead but didn't have
#further details since he is not directly involved.
# *	Ericvh also pointed out that he put a G5 ppc64 linux machine on
#	the network for people to use. He also mentioned that IBM will be
#	releasing its full system simulator for ppc64 (ppc970 GP/UL and
#	rhype) any day now.
# *	Cross asked which machines other than the fated Apple ppc
#	machines might benefit from such a port and Ericvh mentioned the
#	Ps/3 and Xbox 360.
#
#Newsh asked about how the cell would be used and Ericvh said the PPC
#core would run Plan9 and provided some examples of how the SIMD
#cores might be used.
#
#TECH TRANSFER PROJECTS (P9P, DTLINUX, V9FS)
#
#Ericvh passed on a p9p update on behalf of Russ (who was not
#present). Work continues but nothing big is planned. Venti is
#working and available from the p9p CVS (although under a different
#module name). Russ and Jmk are going to put venti through its paces
#at the Labs and then roll it into p9p and Plan9.
#
#20h is working on dtLinux 2.6 with some free time he has gotten
#recently. It will have p9p, Inferno and v9fs.
#
#Ericvh also mentioned progress on a drawterm replacement under p9p
#which started off a discussion about drawterm and splitting up p9p
#into packages. The drawterm discussion:
# *	p9p drawterm is progressing but Russ hasn't had time for it
#	lately. It still needs work on the synthetic console and graphics
#	devices.
# *	Ericvh stated that dt2k has windows support and that there is
#	talk of dropping the old drawterm completely. He also stated he has
#	it working in ppc-linux.
# *	Uriel asked who maintains dt2k, Ericvh pointed out that it is
#	available at ucalgary (f2f's repository) and f2f eventually replied
#	that it is unknown who current maintainer is.
# *	20h stated an objection to p9p as a drawterm replacement due to
#	its size and lack of modularity.
# *	Uriel stated that a Limbo-based drawterm would be a good solution
#	and be easy to do (once Plan9 authentication issues are addressed
#	in Inferno).
# *	Hyperion hinted that VNC is a viable alternative and Ericvh
#	pointed out that VNC doesn't do everything that drawterm does.
# *	Ericvh asked for promiment drawterm documentation on the wiki and
#	Uriel agreed that a drawterm page should be made.
#
#The discussion on finer grained packaging of p9p:
# *	Newsh stated that taking a specific component, such as drawterm,
#	out of p9p and providing binaries or sources seperately shouldnt be
#	too hard. 20h offered skepticism that this would actually occur due
#	to traditional lack of manpower.
# *	Ericvh said he had talked to Russ about breaking up p9p and that
#	Russ wasn't opposed to it but did not want the packaging to be too
#	granular due to interdependencies.
# *	Uriel stated that there should be a package of libraries and
#	opined that developers want libraries seperate from the
#	applications.
# *	Cross argued that breaking up p9p will only increase complexity.
# *	Some stated that p9p is too monolithic and others pointed out
#	that Plan9 has traditionally been monolithic. The topic drifted
#	towards the philosophical.
# *	Ericvh pointed out that if the sources are removed p9p is quite
#	small.
#
#Ericvh said he packaged p9p for gentoo and submitted them, although
#the packages are "lost in their bugtracker."
#
#9GRID AND CROSS-DOMAIN AUTH
#
#20h stated that there are two proposed solutions that have been
#developed and are in use. One is his own in use for 9grid.de and the
#other is tip9ug's implementation in use at tip9ug.jp.
#
#The potential for using Inferno's PKI-based authentication was
#suggested by Newsh and Uriel. 20h pointed out that the main obstacle
#is getting someone to write the code.
#
#Ericvh expressed an interest in hosting some cross domain
#authentication server but may not be able to due to his network
#setup and a desire to maintain his current ability to authenticate
#against sources.
# *	Nashi pointed out that you can log in to isengard.tip9ug.jp with
#	either a sources account or a tip9ug account.
# *	Nashi said his factotum patches are available at
#	[http://www.tip9ug.jp/who/nashi/9grid/p9sk1.c]
#
#Ericvh said that there should be a wiki to collect information about
#the cross-domain authentication systems and Newsh seconded this idea.
# *	Uriel noted that there should be some coordination between the
#	people working on cross-domain authentication. Ericvh pointed out
#	that the wiki would aid in this.
# *	Nashi said he would translate his page and place it on the wiki.
# *	Quintile suggested a seperate mailing list and several people
#	replied that 9fans would be suitable.
#
#TEXT BASED INSTALL
#
#The topic sponsor was idle and this topic was skipped at first and
#returned to when the sponsor returned.
#
#Bakul expressed a desire to have a pre-canned automated installer
#that required no interaction.
#
#Ericvh suggested that there should be an option to install a CPU
#server from the installer.
# *	Newsh offered that this could be a shell script that is run
#	post-install to upgrade a terminal to a CPU server.
# *	Ericvh offered instead that it be a final step after the
#	installer has finished the installation. He also asked for a
#	volunteer but no one responded publically. Uriel said he would add
#	the item to the wiki [TODO] page.
#
#VESA SUPPORT
#
#Uriel asked when VESA support would be in the install ISO. Nobody
#present was able to answer.
#
#Uriel started off a discussion of wether the ISO should support both
#native and VESA drivers or only the VESA driver.
# *	Hyperion pointed out that VESA did not work on his geforce2.
# *	Ericvh stated that VESA was an important option during installs
#	and suggested that it could be a boot argument or part of a
#	companion boot floppy.
# *	Uriel noted that 20h would like to remove native drivers to save
#	space.
# *	Uriel pointed out that VESA does not universally work and where
#	it does may not work as well as native drivers in terms of
#	selection of screen resolutions and refresh rates.
# *	Ericvh pointed out that it would work more reliably than native
#	drivers for LiveCDs and installers and that users could use native
#	drivers after install if they so choose.
#
#CHAOS
#
#Ericvh called for a volunteer to moderate the next meeting.
#
#Hyperion asked if the future direction of Xen 3.0 will adversely
#affect Plan9. Newsh and Ericvh answered that it will not since there
#are no plans for a Plan9 Domain 0.
#